Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:01.144)
Today we are welcoming Dee Rook to the podcast. Dee is a restorative justice community worker, social work student, and co-representative for Ontario in the Survivors for Justice Reform Coalition? Coalition, yeah. Okay. I'm going to redo that.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:26.19)
Today we are joined by Dee Rook, who is a community, no, sorry. Normally I don't have to redo things so many times. I highly apologize. Don't worry about it. Okay. Today we are joined by Dee Rook and Dee is a restorative justice community worker, social work student, and co-representative for Ontario in the Survivors for Justice Reform Coalition.
Dee, welcome to the She Matters podcast. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for joining us. I know restorative justice is a topic that is being widely discussed right now in Canada and beyond. And we are so, so grateful to have you come and chat about not only your work as a restorative justice community worker,
but also your experiences in this field and what drew you to it. Of course, I'm excited to chat. So we're going to just dive right in. And I know the number one question that people are thinking right now is what is restorative justice? So in your own words, how would you define restorative justice?
and maybe share a little bit about how it differs from the traditional criminal justice system. Yeah, so that's a big question. And one that's actually part of the beauty of restorative justice is that there is no strict criteria for it. But maybe what I can start with is how it differs from the criminal legal system
that many people use and rightfully so, if they so choose. So one thing that restorative justice does that the criminal justice system doesn't is focus on the needs of the survivor, especially when it comes to instances of sexual violence, sexual harm, intimate
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (02:45.902)
partner violence and that kind of thing. So more gender-based violence. So it focuses on the need of the survivor and centers the survivor's healing as opposed to centering, you know, punishment and retribution for the person who caused the harm. So with it being kind of survivor centered,
Restorative justice can look different depending on what the needs are for the survivor. You know, some survivors want to confront or converse with the person that caused them harm. Others don't. There is no one size fits all, which is another, you know.
very different piece from the criminal justice system as we know it. Another thing that I would describe restorative justice as is centering healing. We know and I know as a survivor myself that went through the traditional criminal legal system
that healing is not at the top of the agenda when you do go through the criminal legal system, at least not in my case. And what I would offer is that restorative approaches really try to promote the healing in everyone who's involved, right? So I would say that
is one very big difference between those two kind of approaches to addressing harm. I think that's one part of the narrative that is currently being shared towards restorative justice that we don't typically hear that there is no one specific approach to restorative justice and that
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (05:08.96)
It is quite literally adapted for the survivor's needs. As a community worker yourself, have you had any survivors that have explored the process and been surprised to hear that there are multiple approaches to navigating restorative justice?
I would say not first hand, but I know through the organization that I do some work with, you know, we do have quite a few options for people who want to go through a restorative process. And we have to remember too that restorative processes aren't restricted to
you know, the survivor and the harm doer, right? They could include people beyond that, those two people. So for instance, let's think about someone who experienced harm, who maybe went to a parent and disclosed that harm, and maybe that parent didn't act.
to immediately stop that harm from continuing, right? So it wasn't the parent who directly caused the harm, but they didn't stop it either, right? So there's struggle in that relationship now between the parent and the person who received harm in that there wasn't anything done when they did disclose.
So some restorative options are actually between survivors and trusted adults, i.e. parents or caregivers, right, who they disclose to and maybe that caregiver didn't do what that survivor had hoped, right? So to really facilitate conversation to allow the survivor to articulate
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (07:32.271)
what the impact was for them and kind of give that other person an opportunity to share a bit of where they were coming from. mean, it's never, know, especially in instances where it involves family members and stuff like that, it's very complex. And there's a lot of reasons why people don't disclose, don't report, don't go to the police, don't ask for
someone to be removed from the home, right? When you figure, you know, social aspects like finances and living arrangements and custody issues and stuff like that. So we don't live in a white and black world. And because of that, I personally don't think we should be addressing harm in a black and white way.
we very much live in the gray. We very much need to address harm in adaptive ways that center the needs of those who've been harmed. I think that example actually perfectly articulates how restorative justice practices center healing.
for most survivors that I've engaged with and for myself as well, when disclosing your experiences, I'd say the vast majority of folks don't typically respond in trauma-wise ways. And I think, as you mentioned, a lot of scenarios in which we experience these types of harm are really in the gray area. And there are other
elements at play that may contribute to how folks respond. I think articulating that this practice really does integrate healing for probably both parties, I would say. Absolutely. That's our hope, right? Yeah, that's a very important piece to bring in. And I think when a lot of folks think about restorative justice, even
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (09:53.794)
You're not thinking about anyone aside from the survivor or victim of the crime or harm that was perpetrated and the perpetrator. And the reality is that so many other people can still cause harm to that survivor in different ways. So I really love that you shared that example. In terms of
restorative practices as you've mentioned. Aside from this particular example, are there any other types of practices that you can maybe share here? You've mentioned the dynamics between families, but are there other types of dialogues that can also include
the perpetrators of harm or other folks who have caused harm or even like circles of support. Absolutely. Right. Yeah, you bring up a really good point. And what I really like that you brought up is the circles of support. So, you know, when harm happens, it's never just the person who received the harm that's impacted. It is the person who received harm.
It's their families, it's their coworkers, their peers, their friends, their community. Similarly, on the person who's caused the harm, if and when they disclose that they've caused harm or if they get involved with the justice system and are arrested, these people,
are also family members, husbands, spouses. They work in the community, they're engaged with community. the answer, short answer to your question is yes, there are lots of different ways that Restorative Justice can be practiced beyond a dialogue. So there are support groups for
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (12:16.558)
People who've offended, who wish to continue taking accountability and making the changes and healing that needs to be done in order to, so they can prevent harm from continuing to occur. There are support groups for people who care about people who have caused harm, right? Mothers, wives.
spouses, sisters, like whoever that is. Healing doesn't just happen in a silo, right? Same way harm doesn't happen in a silo. So we need to ensure that all of the community members who are impacted by the harm are also getting that support when they need it. Beyond, you know, the support group or circle of support type of thing.
there are facilitated dialogues where you can bring someone who's experienced harm and someone who's perpetrated harm together after a lot of work and development together with highly trained facilitated dialogue facilitators. And sometimes that's exactly what needs to be done for the survivor to
move forward on their healing journey. If, you know, and there are instances where, say, it's not safe enough for someone who's experienced harm and their perpetrator to come together, right? And so what do do in that case? Well, you know, Community Justice Initiatives decided, you know, to fill that gap. They would
start a surrogacy program where they have a roster of surrogates of both sides of the harm. So both people who've caused the harm, people who've experienced the harm can stand in for restorative dialogues and circles when someone's immediate person, whether that's the perpetrator or the survivor, if they can't
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (14:40.974)
come together in a safe way, right? Right. So, I mean, like I said, the options are really endless when the needs can be so diverse and vary so drastically depending on each individual person and each individual scenario. Absolutely.
What you just described with even just the surrogates program alone sounds so transformative. And it makes me wonder why we don't see more programs like this across the province or across the country as just integral parts of our communities. I know this is a big question, but do you have
from your experience as a community worker, do you have any thoughts on why that may be? I have many thoughts on why that may be. think alternatives to anything beyond the criminal legal system are scary for a lot of people because the criminal legal system has been the primary and often only
option available to anyone who's experienced harm in any capacity. So that familiarity with the criminal legal system offers a comfort that maybe things outside of it might not be able to offer. That being said, I think I believe the criminal legal system can actually
reproduce harm in many ways, particularly for vulnerable people. Without a doubt, yes. So I think it's time people start thinking beyond, right? Beyond that one single option. I believe funding is a big barrier to offering more restorative programming and it's
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (17:08.584)
easy to see that a lot of our funding goes into reactive responses to harm. So they go to police to respond when harm happens and that money is deterred away from community, right?
because it's going to police, it's going to government run programming, it's going to institutions that have been long running, even if they might not work as good as we hoped they would. It's what everyone is familiar with. It's what everyone knows. And who do you call in an emergency? It's not your local community restorative justice practitioner.
it's the police, right? It's not your community mental health worker when it's a mental health issue, it's the police. So I think there's a few things. The funding is one. A fundamental shift in thinking would have to be another one and there needs to be a a community like outcry for alternatives to the criminal legal system.
for those in power to justify removing funds from what we all are familiar with and trying out alternative approaches. Without that activism piece, you know, there still will be restorative options in communities. They will be very hard to find.
and very few and far between. So it's going to take a collective effort to make those changes necessary to find more restorative options that are easily accessible and available to the communities. So I'm curious, what drew you initially to work within the sector?
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (19:34.574)
and I know you mentioned you're also a social work student. So obviously this area is something you're deeply passionate about. What started that for you? I think that's a culmination of many different things happening in my life. I'm a survivor of sexual violence myself. So obviously that allows me to bring
that kind of piece to the work I do. come from, I worked in law enforcement for a few, many years in my youth. Well, not youth, but when I was old enough to work in law enforcement. And I got to witness the many gaps that exist.
You know, and so many people go into law enforcement wanting to serve their community. But when the legislation doesn't serve their community, how do you expect the services that uphold that legislation to then serve the community? So I saw a lot of gaps between what I understood as justice and, you know, criminal justice and policing.
So I think that also led me to explore alternatives. And, you know, so my work experience, my lived experience as a survivor, and then I started off my education in college and I got a placement with a local community agency called Community Justice Initiatives based out of Kitchener.
And I started my placement there to gain work experience and lived experience and learn. And ever since then, I've continued my work with them as a volunteer. So I've been with them now for five, just over five years or about five years. And, you know,
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (21:57.824)
It's through the last five years I've really come to learn more about restorative approaches to addressing harm, particularly as it relates to sexual harm. It's quite a journey that you've been on personally as well. Within your experience at...
CEJI specifically. I'm trying to think about how I phrase this here, but what are some examples of experiences you've had there that have really stuck out to you? Or any specific examples if you can share them where restorative justice practices made
a very positive impact or transformative impact on a survivor's healing? I think I'll speak to what I know and what I know is my own experience. So like I said, I'm a survivor of sexual harm. I went through the criminal legal system. My harm doer never
I did not get the justice I was seeking from my harm doer. Fast forward 20 years, I'm now working in restorative justice in Kitchener and I find myself working to help develop this surrogacy program I was speaking about earlier. And part of being on that task group to
to develop that program included working with people with both types of lived experience around sexual harm. So I worked very closely with a handful of people, there were about five of us on that task group that worked to develop the program and develop the training for the program. And I worked with someone who had caused sexual harm.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (24:17.25)
And through working with that person for two or some odd years on this program development, they became a friend. And it dawned on me that people are far more than just the harmful actions they've taken.
especially those who are willing to take accountability and grow that accountability so that the harm stops. So here's this person who's previously caused harm. They've done a lot of work to heal from that and stop causing harm. And now they're helping me, a survivor, we're working together to help develop a program to
further help people in the community who've experienced harm. Wow. you know, working with that person who now I call a friend was really transformational in my, not just my own understanding of restorative processes, but my own healing. Cause now I see the person who's caused me harm.
as more than just a villain, more than just a bad guy. Further to that, when we did produce the training and we went ahead and did the inaugural training for surrogates, in that six week training, we did
You know, so there, was a larger group at this point, I think 11, about 11 people who did that training. And again, it was a 50, about a 50-50 split of people who caused harm and people who've been harmed. And in this training that we all do together as a collective, part of that included sharing bits and pieces of our own lived experience. And
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (26:43.34)
I'll never forget, I was sitting in circle with everyone and there was someone across, sitting right across from me. And it was easy to talk, kind of when I was speaking, was easy to center them as the person who I'm speaking to, just to kind of focus on while I'm speaking and as I'm sharing my story and I'm sharing the response I got from the criminal legal system.
when I tried to get justice, here's this person who had caused harm, looked looking at me, hearing my story, and I could see his visceral response to what I was saying and sharing. And he looked at me with the most sincere
genuine approach and said, I am so sorry you went through that. And in that moment, I healed far more than I think the criminal legal system could have ever healed me. Yeah, everything you're sharing, it resonates so deeply when I reflect on the conversations that I have.
with survivors on a weekly basis. The structure that we have as an organization is that we are survivor led and we are offering peer to peer support in addition to like information regarding your rights, education about the systems that exist and how you can seek support and resources through these existing systems and community based organizations. And
I hear so frequently from survivors that they do not feel seen and they do not feel heard. And now that restorative justice practices are starting to be discussed, I am so grateful that survivors will be able to hear about this experience that you had and be able to understand that many of the myths that folks carry.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (29:08.908)
as it relates to restorative justice are simply very common misconceptions. And I think another point that really deeply connects with what you just shared is that rehabilitation and accepting responsibility and transforming how you present yourself in the world is possible. And if we...
really want to break down those cycles of violence, we have to provide space for people to change and evolve. And just on that note alone, through the surrogates program or through the practices that are used within the organization you volunteer at, have you seen
from the other side, a real shift in those who participate in the surrogacy program or in the circles that may take place between both victims and offenders. If not, your direct experiences like the one you just shared through maybe conversations that are had through the organization.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (30:28.152)
So one of my first roles with the organization was facilitating a peer support group for people who have caused harm. Many of those in that group had been in touch with the criminal legal system.
And the short answer to your question is yes, absolutely. I've seen some transformative things happen in safe spaces. I think the real transformation though happens when space is shared.
for instance, like that task group or like the surrogacy program where spaces are shared between survivors and people who've caused harm to stop, prevent, educate, and offer healing to the community. When those people are working together, that is transformative.
because you have people who have historically caused harm and people who have historically been harmed coming together for the same purpose. And...
I don't know that that would happen in a punitive carceral environment. think when we penalize, shame, harm, and don't give space for growth and learning.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (32:36.916)
and healing, I think things get worse. You know, like, and if we're being honest, the vast majority of people who cause harm end up back in community. Right. So why aren't we offering them spaces for healing? Why aren't we offering them spaces for growth and learning and accountability? And yet,
We restrict them from their communities. We restrict them from any support. Put them in a cell. Expect them to learn from their mistake. And then put them right back where they were before they went in there with no support. Do you know, it just seems kind of cyclical to me where here's this alternative where, you
people who've caused harm go through a process of education first and then peer support and then can grow in their accountability journey and then hopefully evolve to the point where they're ready to give back to the community through becoming a surrogate or through developing, I don't know, programs of their own to support people. Like, who knows? Who knows what the boundaries would be if we
centered this beautiful place where healing and learning and growth can happen? I have a question related to that specifically. I am reflecting on a conversation I had in a coalition I'm a part of in Northern Ontario. It was actually with a detective regarding the bail reforms that have been
brought forth in our province and he was actually sharing that it won't end the cycle of violence because it's not addressing those who are causing harm in a way that offers reflection. And he actually was recognizing that many of those who are causing harm have experienced harm in like in their younger years and then continue that cycle, right?
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (35:04.434)
so in reflecting on that conversation that I had and what you've just shared, it almost seems like an obvious solution to integrate this into community. When we know that, as you mentioned, the, those who are causing harm are going to be back in community and they will be in community with no supports. so from a, guess,
community response standpoint to sexualized violence. Is this a practice that the organization that you're volunteering with has maybe like trainings like you mentioned or things of that nature for any communities who are wanting to integrate more community-based models in how they address sexualized violence?
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (35:59.448)
So I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that. However, I would offer that most, if not all, restorative justice-centered community organizations want growth in this area. They want their sister communities and their close by communities and
communities across the province and the nation and you know everywhere to learn about and offer restorative options because you know like we can do what we can in in the city in which we operate but until it's why widely available and accessible
how big is the impact we're really having, right? Like for the individual, could be very profound. Like for me, the impact community justice initiatives has had on me is profound, but on the broader scale, like imagine what we can do if there was restorative options in every major city, every rural community, every place in between, right? So I would say,
that most restorative organizations I know of are hoping for communities to develop and grow their own restorative options. And if anyone needs support in exploring what that looks like, go to current agencies or organizations who are doing the work and reach out.
of that advice. I find it really hard to believe that any restorative organization would not offer some sort of support in spreading this, right? Absolutely. think it's so needed when we think of how we can reimagine or redesign our care pathways.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (38:23.31)
for survivors and that healing process. I won't even say the justice seeking process because so many survivors do not see whatever they interpret justice to be and do not feel healing typically through the existing systems that we have.
But maybe I'll pose that question to you as we wrap up this conversation today. If you could redesign and reimagine the care pathways that are available to survivors after they've experienced sexual harm, what would that look like to you? Who would be involved? What would the process feel like? What accountability, I guess,
could be found through these processes and how would it interconnect with restorative justice? I'm just, I'm trying to put myself in back in the shoes of when I first experienced harm and at that time, you know, so I'll bring you back there with me momentarily so you can get an idea of where I was. I was 24.
I was trying to get into law enforcement at that time. So I had applications in, I was waiting for calls kind of, you know, to start my training. And so knowing this, and previously I had worked for victim services. And so in my head, my only options were to call the police or not call the police.
And that's all I knew. And so after three days, yeah, it took me three days to call the police, I considered one thing, and that was if I ever worked in victim services again, and I got called to a scene where someone experienced sexual harm, and the offender, or the person who caused the harm, was the same person who caused me harm.
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:45.26)
I wouldn't be able to live with myself had I not done anything. Right? Right. So knowing that and thinking about being in that possible situation, I decided to report to the police. My main motivation for reporting to the police was to ensure no one else got harmed. Right? So alternatively,
If there were other options that I felt could have supported my desire to not have that person harm anybody else in an effective way, that would have been my first option. But at the time, the only option I had available to me was the criminal legal system.
that I knew of anyways. So what would it look like if I were to imagine healing pathways for survivors today? It would look like informed consent and options. It would look like having various options to meet their needs, whether that involves criminal legal approaches, whether that involves carceral
approaches, whether that involves healing and restorative approaches, whether it's transformative and completely outside the carceral legal system. I want options for survivors where they can take their needs, center their needs, and be empowered to move forward in a way that will help them heal. Beautifully said.
I think that is where I will leave us for today. In our show notes, I'm going to share some of the community-based organizations you mentioned who are doing transformational work in restorative justice and share more information about where both survivors or allies can learn more. Do you have any particular recommendations related to
Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (43:14.094)
education about what survivors can, I guess, choose to do if they're trying to decide what option is best for them? That's tough because depending on where your listeners are coming from, that might look different. I would say, you know, inform yourself of any local organizations doing support specifically for survivors that centers healing and is survivor-led.
Because when harm happens in a way that involves sexual harm, healing and the survivor's needs must come front and center before anything else happens. Following getting that support you need, do some investigation. Call local organizations who kind of might offer restorative options.
you know, local sexual assault support center might know of community-based agencies that kind of work with survivors for healing. You know, so, and if you can't find anything, reach out to community justice initiatives. They might have connections in your local community. Reach out to survivors for justice reform. Their local chapter might have
insight into who's doing restorative work in your community. But reach out, know, reach out to someone, make sure you're getting that support, make sure you're being heard and listened to. And, and yeah, we're just we're here for you. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dee. I know I've learned a lot about not only the work that Community Justice Initiatives does, but
also just about the topic of restorative justice and the healing that can really take place when adopting these practices. And I've really just enjoyed learning more about you as well. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much.
