Centering Youth Voices: Youth-Led Prevention and Addressing Harm with Shael Norris

What does it actually look like to put young people at the center of preventing sexual violence? In this episode, Jacqueline sits down with Shael Norris, Founding Executive Director of SafeBAE, and a former staff member of V-Day, to talk about her path from "accidental activism" to building one of the only youth- and survivor-led prevention organizations in the United States. Shael shares why SafeBAE does things differently. From paying the young survivors they work with, why youth sit on the organizations board of directors (not a separate youth advisory board), and what she's learned about the delicate line between healing and activism. The conversation moves into SafeBAE's school-based prevention models and certified peer educator training, the research showing why one-off assemblies don't work. The conversation moves to discussing VibeCheck — a first-of-its-kind accountability tool designed to reach people who have caused or fear they've caused harm, before they spiral further. Shael closes with her single most important piece of advice for parents. This episode is a candid, hopeful conversation about meeting young people where they are, passing the torch, and refusing to look away from the hardest parts of this work. 00:00 – Welcome 00:26 – "Accidental activism": Eve Ensler, V-Day, and finding the work 04:46 – A dress code, Title IX, and the gaps no one was filling 07:51 – Founding SafeBAE and partnering with the youth from Audrie & Daisy 14:06 – From Sundance to 33 schools in the first year 18:51 – Why young people have value, and why you should be paying them 22:53 – Youth in the trenches: putting young people on the board 28:45 – Healing vs. activism, and not making trauma your identity 38:39 – Passing the torch and leaving ego at the door 43:45 – "Know Before You Nude" and being surprised by the adults 50:38 – SafeBAE's prevention "buffet" and certified peer educator training 56:08 – What the research says: why one-off programs fail 1:00:08 – Accountability tools, restorative justice, and culture change 1:04:15 – The origin of VibeCheck: interrupting harmful pathways online 1:12:17 – Don't create their "villain origin story" 1:21:29 – One call to action for parents: be the person they can call 1:25:33 – Where to find SafeBAE and VibeCheck Resources & Links: SafeBAE - safebae.org VibeCheck by SafeBAE - checkyourvibe.org REES Community (anonymous reporting platform) - reescommunity.com Audrie & Daisy - 2016 documentary, found on Netflix V-Day - vday.org Connect with She Matters: www.shematters.ca or email: [email protected] If this episode resonated with you, please follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone in your community.

Episode Transcript

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:01)
Welcome Shail to the She Matters podcast.

Shael Norris (00:06)
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:08)
So I want to dive into your why a little bit. So you spent your career advocating for survivors and leading prevention initiatives. So what was that moment where you decided that this was your life's work?

Shael Norris (00:26)
that is such a good question. Because I don't know if there's one specific moment or a lot of little moments leading along the way. I definitely wasn't somebody who studied thought or planned for this. I call it accidental activism. So I was just a wide-eyed girl of 22 in New York working in theater and meeting Eve Ensler and getting and.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:30)
and

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (00:41)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (00:51)
formerly of Ensler, now V, and getting to work on the Vagina Monologues and understanding and getting little by little to see the impact of that show and the transformative conversations and change that came out of the advocacy that grew out of those productions and the related communities that those productions created.

Shael Norris (01:15)
I think just little by little, I think I saw myself going like, well, what else would I do that would be important if it isn't this? And I think at a certain point, in the middle of all that, I started that before I became a mom. And then when you become a mom, you go, OK, well, there's a whole different other mindset and lens through which you see the world, not just for yourself or your experiences or those around you. You start to think about what you want to leave for your kids and what you want your legacy to be.

Shael Norris (01:45)
crazy as it seemed in my 30s to be thinking about my legacy. It was so obvious. There's nobody working in a higher ed that isn't like, no, we don't need to start these conversations younger. It became obvious that there was a whole lifespan of work that needed to be addressed and really big gaps in among talking with things about younger, with younger people about these issues that just was sitting there virtually untouched in the way that I wanted to and saw a way.

Shael Norris (02:14)
we could lean into that. It just seemed obvious at a certain point. It was just like a no-brainer. Yeah, there wasn't one moment. It was a lot of little ones. And mostly, it was meeting extraordinary young people that...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (02:15)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (02:29)
forced my thinking to be like, I'm not the, cause you know, I was the youngest founding staff member at V-Day, but at a certain point I woke up and went, oh no, I'm not that anymore. Like, am I 40? Who saw that coming? And it was really like turning 40, my kids coming into middle school and the obviousness of the work meetings to start earlier and the young people I was meeting along the way that were just like,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (02:39)
More.

Shael Norris (02:58)
If I don't help to galvanize, use whatever network I have, whatever platform I have, whatever knowledge and network I have to uplift their voices, their vision, and their understanding of this work, the same way it was done for me, to be clear, I didn't make this up. It was at V-Day, my elders, the women that came before me that were so smart and taught me everything I knew and gave me...

Shael Norris (03:23)
the opportunity to stand beside them and with them in this work, all I wanted to do was replicate that for like a lot of other kids. So it was all the kids that I was meeting that I was like, if I'm not serving them, then I don't, there's no point in getting out of bed.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (03:36)
Mm-hmm. So did it kind of start with your work on college campuses combined with your experiences as a mom seeing what your own kids were going through and kind of meshed together to then bring you into work with middle and high school students?

Shael Norris (03:56)
That was exactly it, right? So I had a very specific purview on college campuses. I got to see some of the work that was really transforming the way colleges weren't going to be able to avoid this issue anymore. And so once you kind of get that taste of like, wait, this can look different, you then go, okay, well now we can apply it. Like that's cracked the door open. And when I say cracked, cracked the door open like, okay.

Shael Norris (04:26)
It's gonna be so much harder and so much more nuanced when you're talking about underage kids and there's gonna be so much more resistance and so much more adult gatekeeping and all the things. But if we did it there when everybody else said we couldn't on college campuses, then I remain hopeful. Nobody tells you the amount of optimism you have to bring to this type of work. But then exactly like you said, that intersected with me seeing...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (04:46)
yes.

Shael Norris (04:56)
the world through that lens of what are my kids gonna experience and how are they gonna experience it. And one of the first examples of that was my daughter getting dress coded in the very beginning of sixth grade and told that her tank top straps weren't wide enough. They were never told a school dress code policy. It was just there in the eighth year somewhere, but she also was one of the kids that had developed earlier. And by the way, was wearing my tank top. So I was like, did you slut shame my daughter? What are you talking about?

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (05:23)
in turn doing the same thing you really.

Shael Norris (05:24)
and then make her put a sweater on and 80 degrees. Yeah. And so I went, oh, they have no idea what Title IX is. They have no idea that they can't just pull my daughter out of class and limit her access to education based on what she's wearing. They have no idea who they're dealing with right now. And I was like, OK, I'm not going to come in guns blazing, but I am going to say that's not going to happen again.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (05:37)
Hmm.

Shael Norris (05:50)
And if you need a clear understanding of why, I'm happy to explain it to you. And then I went, you know, the Dear Colleague letter in the US that outlined how college campuses were supposed to respond to college campus sexual violence never covered, even though Title IX in the US applies to K through 12 as well.

Shael Norris (06:17)
the Dear Colleague letter that set the bar for how colleges needed to change, never applied to, they never bothered to mention K-12. So nobody had any guidance about knowing what they were supposed to do, knowing how to conduct investigations, knowing what the law was and how it applied to them. And so it wasn't the fault of school administrators per se, it was just a gap in the system. And

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (06:27)
Interesting.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (06:40)
with me now.

Shael Norris (06:42)
Gaps are my sweet spot. I don't like gaps. I like to fill in gaps. like to... What's that? And so, right, your audience is Canadian. You don't have Title IX, but same rules apply. Let's not be limiting access to education based on gender because we get uncomfortable or we don't want to talk about these things or we want to pretend they're not happening here.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (06:47)
I hear you there.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (07:07)
Right. I had a question for you there. Don't worry, this will be edited. But it left my mind as we were talking. So it sounds like you've always been someone who is, as you said, open to systems change, open to innovation, also having that fire and passion for just making things happen when you see the gap. Like, this can't be acceptable. So we're going to push to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (07:36)
make things happen. I'd love to hear how you went from that to then starting Safe Bay. What were there things that took place? How did you get connected with your co-founders?

Shael Norris (07:51)
Mm-hm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (07:52)
please share for anyone who hasn't heard about. Again, we're a Canadian based organization and a lot of our listeners are based here, but I think your organization in particular has such a background story. So I'd love to hear more about that.

Shael Norris (08:06)
No, it really has been the gift of my life too. So, I mean, I was sitting within V-Day still. was about probably 16 years into being the director of college and community campaigns. And I really wanted to start doing this work younger. yet at the same, we were also sort of at this moment in V-Day where it was like, are we still relevant? Are we still doing the important work? Are we still like...

Shael Norris (08:34)
at the top of our game, should we be still doing what we're doing or investing in like a next, right? Like creating that sort of, that sort of opening for other people to step forward, right? Which is really counter, like you don't really see organizations like get big and then say, are we still serving what we came here to do? And if we're not, let's get out of the way and like invite new innovation.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (08:35)
Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (08:48)
Right.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (08:54)
No.

Shael Norris (09:03)
And so, and I, that is a full credit to V, right? Like you have to get outside of your ego and say, where are we in the work and how can we continue to serve it the best we can? So all of that is to say, the decision was made to disband the staffing infrastructure. And at that time I asked for a grant to start Safe Bay. And I will say they were like, this is gonna be so much harder than the college and community came out. I was like, I know.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (09:22)
Wow.

Shael Norris (09:31)
But clearly I'm insane, right? Clearly I'm crazy and I was willing to take that on and just, you know, just crazy enough and just, I think, aspirational enough or optimistic enough, all of those things. And so they gave me a tiny little grant and said, okay, let's go. And have been such amazing supporters since. They still fund us. And...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (09:41)
Thanks.

Shael Norris (10:00)
I think it was that opportunity. So they were like, okay, sure, you believe in it, let's go. And I had known at that point from everything that had happened within the college campaigns and everything that we sort of innovated within that system, that there was no way I could stand in the middle of that. I needed to immediately seek out young people who would be as impassioned as I was and paired with me to do this work.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (10:16)
you

Shael Norris (10:27)
Because at the end of days, particularly with high school age students, nobody needs to hear these messages from another middle-aged white lady. We could have the exact same script, but if they're hearing it from kids, it's going to hit very differently. So that's when we looked at, okay, so how can the development and the direction of what we were doing be shaped by young people? And I can facilitate that, right? Bring them together.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (10:40)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (10:53)
help with the network, help bring in experts to help guide it, but like really let that pull through. And so the kids were still in the process of the very end of filming Audrey and Daisy, which is the Netflix documentary that they're the subjects of, specifically Daisy Coleman and Charlie Coleman really central in that storytelling about Daisy's experience. And...

Shael Norris (11:22)
I think for me too, was very much a testament to my coming up in V-Day, understanding the connection between art and activism and really understanding that the film itself could galvanize an entire audience around this issue. Who don't know from this issue? Like if you haven't experienced it or you maybe don't know someone who's experienced it or, you know, then you may, along with just about everybody else.

Shael Norris (11:47)
see this as an invisible thing, or not see it at all because it's invisible to you because you haven't experienced it. So art can oftentimes open the door to a world of understanding that we wouldn't have had before and then you have to, once that door opens for people, immediately give them accessible, authentic, easy entry points for them to engage in the work and join and say, this upset me, this was really disturbing to me, I'm...

Shael Norris (12:16)
I'm for my child, I'm concerned for my friend, whoever you are, and invite you into wanting to make change right along with us. So that's where we started. We decided the kids, you know, the film was gonna come out. We knew that there were gonna be like a whole film festival circuit, but that the first, very first event we did was at Sundance Film Festival. And we got to just use a tiny little art gallery there and sit down and talk with kids from Park City.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (12:20)
Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (12:38)
Bye y'all.

Shael Norris (12:45)
about their experiences and about the film itself and think about galvanizing that into programmatic work. so then the film got picked up by Netflix. It hit distribution on Netflix in September of 2016. And by then we were sort of ready to go with some short format video content, educational things that people could do. yet still.

Shael Norris (13:13)
got no invitations or openings or entry into secondary schools. We got invitations to colleges and I really at that point tapped into, again, using that same framework, where who's my network, how can I help? I reached out to every college campaign, like contact I'd ever had on any college campus anywhere in the world. And I said, there's this film, I don't even have so much as a trailer.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (13:35)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (13:40)
But you've known me for about 20 years. if anyone wants to screen this film for their school audiences, because they do a lot of campus programming, educational programming, I have all the kids that have been in this film. And they could come out and do a Q &A. They can introduce the program that they're developing. And let me know if you're interested. And so that first year, we went to 33 schools.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (14:06)
Wow.

Shael Norris (14:07)
I was not prepared for that. The quiet hero of this work is for sure my husband, who stayed home with my children while I was traveling with my other children. And so that's really where we started. And I think initially the kids were like, who is this lady? And for sure their parents, were, you know, their whole families had been through significant trauma. So building relationships with their families and themselves to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (14:29)
Thank

Shael Norris (14:35)
say, you know, because there's no, if you're the subject of a documentary, you don't get paid for that. But I said, the one thing I know about like doing this work responsibly and ethically is that you will all get paid. I will not pay myself. You will all get paid. So I will negotiate contracts with each college campus we go to. I'll make sure they're all paying us. I will put all of these airline tickets and hotels on my credit card. And I will reimburse myself once we get paid from those schools.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (14:49)
Thank you.

Shael Norris (15:05)
but I will pay you for your time. You have to take time off from school, you have to take time off from work to be here to do this. I will reimburse you for your time and I want to work with you to develop the tools that we are offering from here on out." And they were all like, okay. And it was very unorthodox in that they were like, what do we wanna say? And what is important to us? And what themes do we, that maybe showed up in the film, do we wanna pull out a little bit? Yeah.

Shael Norris (15:35)
So that's really where we started.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (15:37)
Wow. Two things really jump out at me from what you shared. The first being that no middle schools, high schools really engaged. And one of the projects that we're working on right now that kind of came to be unintentionally and we haven't formally shared publicly that we're working on this, but we're starting to map out some of the gaps for children and minors.

Shael Norris (16:05)
Hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (16:05)
experiencing sexual violence in Canada and just...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (16:08)
seeing through all of our other work that there are very significant gaps to accessing information, accessing mental health support, really accessing any type of support throughout the reporting process and what follows. And I think what you shared speaks to that a little bit in that people don't want to talk about children and anyone really under 18 experiencing sexual violence. And the reality is that it's happening

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (16:38)
and it's happening at very high rates. that's exactly. And so it's been very interesting for me over the last sort of year and a half or so.

Shael Norris (16:41)
Right, statistically it's the highest, but we don't want to talk about that.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (16:53)
to see that even though this is one of the highest affected populations across North America even, we still have so few organizations, really the only that comes to mind for the whole of North America that's specifically working with youth, survivor led to.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (17:14)
speak to sexual violence and prevention and support is Safe Bay. So I think that's really a testament to why your work is so needed. And I hope that through hearing this podcast, it inspires folks in other places to maybe take action and just jump on and follow the practices that we'll hopefully be discussing throughout the rest of this interview. But I really

Shael Norris (17:35)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (17:43)
Yeah, see the need for the work that you're doing on a much larger scale throughout other regions as well. It's so, so needed.

Shael Norris (17:55)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (17:59)
Another side quest I wouldn't even mind going into is another thing that you mentioned, which is compensating the survivors who shared their stories in the documentary and how that was one of the foundations of your organization from the very beginning. And the reason why I'd like to dive into that a little bit deeper is because we do get a lot of service providers and folks working in organizations.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (18:29)
who engage with She Matters work. And I think sometimes this is a practice that's talked about, but not actually done in the way that you did through developing Safe Bay. So maybe we can dive into that a little bit deeper and why you made those decisions from the very beginning.

Shael Norris (18:51)
Well, so there are decisions that seem really obvious and yet I think we have been culturalized forever. I know that I certainly came up through my youth with what I like to call, and I'm gonna air quotes here, a fantastic opportunity. And things like internships, things like all the free labor we expect out of young people.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (19:11)
Yes.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (19:16)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (19:18)
is framed as a fantastic opportunity to build your platform, to build your resume, to build towards your future. And that's all well and good, but let's think about who has the...

Shael Norris (19:29)
privilege of taking fantastic opportunities.

Shael Norris (19:33)
Kids who?

Shael Norris (19:37)
live in poverty, don't the privilege of taking, quote, fantastic opportunity, unpaid child labor. I'm just going to be really offensive and call it what it is, which is child labor. And at the end of the day, if we want to do the work that desperately needs to get done and the only people we're inviting to do the work with us is unpaid labor,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (19:38)
Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (19:49)
Yep. That's really what it is.

Shael Norris (20:06)
from privileged kids, what are we doing? We're not even serving the most at-risk populations, marginalized populations, rural populations, poverty populations. I think that that becomes an obvious no-brainer when you look at it like that, when you go, yeah, I guess the only kids that could take those internships are privileged. And we can't do this work through the singular lens of privileged kids.

Shael Norris (20:35)
then you go, then it makes sense, but we were so culturalized to go, no, internships are normal. You have to do the thing and I think if we, I think we, this is the thing when you found an organization with a group of young people and you try to say, okay, if we're going to stay true to our mission, we're going to have to make some really difficult choices. But those are the things that are going to hold us accountable to our mission. And that is that young people have value.

Shael Norris (21:05)
And if young people have value, then you better damn well pay them because otherwise you're telling them that they're not valuable. Let's be real. so, and we are going to be able to invite and welcome and platform people of all kinds of different experiences if we do pay them. So it is critical to our mission that they get the message, they understand, they are valued, they are able to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (21:13)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (21:32)
anyone in any position of any kind anywhere can contribute to the work because it's not going to be a barrier that they won't be paid for it. And then I think at the end of the day, we see there's some really interesting, and I can share with you afterward, but there's some really some very interesting framework models about youth engagement and where on the spectrum you might be engaging young people, right? Because there's a lot of language that's kind of just

Shael Norris (22:00)
all encompassing that I don't think tells the true story of we're youth led, right? You can say you're youth led, but where does that stamp land on that spectrum? And so I think there's all the way down here to like one end of the spectrum is kind of focus group and like get their feedback and let us know what you think of this program that was all created by adults and experts in the field who've like, you know, spend a lot of time becoming knowledgeable in this area, but we're gonna have kids check it just to make sure.

Shael Norris (22:29)
all the way up through, and there's lots of different ways to engage kids. But one of the things that I think is universally done is that we get a youth advisory board, and we have kids on the youth advisory board, and we give them little projects, and we use them as a focus group and things. And out of the gate, my co-founders were like, no. And I said, no, I agree.

Shael Norris (22:53)
No, if you're gonna do this, we are going to have young people sit on our board of directors, not an advisory board, not a separate board, not an adult board, youth board, in the trenches. As a matter of fact, we want to centrally, like...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (22:53)
you

Shael Norris (23:09)
position them in guiding where our work goes with the adults on the board of directors, then encapsulating that vision in do they have network? Do they have access to money? Do they have expertise that they can then apply to the vision of the young people on the board? And so sitting, I love when new adults come to our board of directors and they get to meet the young people who are on our board of directors and they're like, holy shit. Just to be clear, they're always like,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (23:27)
Thank you.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (23:36)
It's.

Shael Norris (23:40)
my gosh, these are really, I'm like, this is what I get to do every day. They are really impressive. And by the way, they will humble you. You better get out of the way and you better like put any sense of ego that you ever thought you had right off the page because.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (23:44)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (24:02)
The only way to serve what their vision is, is to remember and conjure up that feeling of you as a young person who might have been silenced or who might have been tokenized or might have been told they were really ambitious in a very reductive way. Right? I love when young people go, I hate the word ambitious. My daughter says it all the time, I hate the word ambitious. Because it comes right before they pat you on the head and send you right out the door and forget you were ever in their office. And it's true.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (24:23)
you

Shael Norris (24:32)
And so anybody in the adult ally space in our work has to come in with a very clear understanding of who they're serving and how they're showing up, which is very humbling. I'm reminded every day. My nickname among the team is Grams Humbling. It's very loving. It's very, it's very, they say it in the kindest way. No, but I also am totally fine with it. I'm 51 for anyone who's wondering. I'm not like,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (24:33)
It's

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (24:43)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (25:02)
I don't have any illusions that I'm going to the old folks' home just yet, but I'm ready. But you know what I mean? So I like that they feel empowered and safe and that they can be their funny, weird selves and that they can joke and say things like that. Because if they didn't feel comfortable with me, they would never say that. And if they didn't...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (25:07)
my.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (25:24)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (25:28)
Never, never. I have an 11 year old, so I can say that that's very accurate. They would never share the nickname that they definitely have for you to your grade.

Shael Norris (25:33)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (25:41)
my gosh, the board of directors will come into the whole meeting like we're all being a Zoom, right? And they'll have a side chat. The fact that I even know that they have a side chat, they won't let me in on it, but they'll tell me, yes, we've decided that so-and-so is very attractive. And I'm like, my God, inappropriate. And they're like, we're just saying, happy to have an ally that's also a hottie. And I'm like, my gosh. So I love that they can.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (25:48)
We'll see.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (25:51)
you

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (26:00)
you

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (26:05)
you

Shael Norris (26:09)
feel that safe, feel that empowered and feel that I just uplifted to and just all the things, there's, you know.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (26:20)
They've created, you've helped to foster and they've helped to co-develop really that safe space that is required to do this work in the ways that you've done the work. I'm just going to pause quickly because I'm seeing that my computer is fading and I thought I had my charger, but I do not. Are you okay if I do a quick run? Okay. I'll be right back. If you need water or coffee or anything, feel free to grab it.

Shael Norris (26:23)
me

Shael Norris (26:39)
No, you're fine. Yeah, no, of course.

Shael Norris (26:48)
Okay.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (26:53)
I'm just going to stop for a moment and then read, actually I'll leave it on.

Shael Norris (26:59)
Whatever's easiest for you, don't envy the editing process.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (28:03)
All right, I am back.

Shael Norris (28:07)
I'm gonna eat all my crunchy things before it pours back on. Okay.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (28:10)
All right, just let me know when you're done. Snap break.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (28:23)
So we've essentially answered the question I have about survivor-led, what it actually looks like, and youth-led in one. So that's perfect. All right. Sorry, I'm just going to take a breath. I just ran. Race. OK. So within...

Shael Norris (28:31)
Okay.

Shael Norris (28:36)
my God, take all the time. You're good.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (28:45)
I actually feel like you've kind of answered that second question that I had too related to survivor-centered advocacy. this is a good starting point for us. So as the founding executive director, what have you learned about the difference between healing and activism and...

Shael Norris (28:48)
You know, it's kind of reference to your list.

Shael Norris (28:56)
Wait, where are you?

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (29:07)
the balancing act that kind of needs to take place, especially with survivor advocates, when engaging in this work.

Shael Norris (29:17)
That is.

Shael Norris (29:21)
I think that at the core of everything, and it is the most difficult, and I don't know that I've unlocked that answer, by the way. I think the intersection of survivor and advocate can be an exceptionally difficult one, and it's different for everyone. And healing is not linear, and healing is shocking, surprising, you know.

Shael Norris (29:50)
at any given moment around any corner can be another difficult phase. I think what I do know, and again, I I initially was introduced to it and saw it within V-Day's work, and I get emotional talking about this, so I'm just gonna preemptively, I love a good cry. That's our only rule at Safe Bay, we don't apologize for crying.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (29:53)
Right?

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (30:09)
way.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (30:13)
We never apologize for crying either, so feel free.

Shael Norris (30:17)
I think that...

Shael Norris (30:21)
You know, there's so much we've unlocked about the PTSD that comes with surviving sexual violence, but there's so much we also haven't figured out. there's EMDR therapy, which is so brilliant and so helpful and amazing and new treatments being developed all the time. But we still default into like therapy. What are our therapy treatments? What are our therapy protocols? There's nowhere near enough group therapy out there in existence where

Shael Norris (30:48)
People can come together and share and talk about their experiences and hope to find healing in that way. And sometimes that's a fit for people and sometimes it isn't, but also there's not enough. But one of the things I feel like I picked up on over the years is that...

Shael Norris (31:06)
one of the last phases of healing as I've seen it. And again, just want to be clear. I have absolutely no expertise. I am not a psychologist. I'm not a social worker. I'm not a counselor. But what I've had the privilege of witnessing is that that last phase of healing is feeling like you are actively doing something to prevent what happened to you from happening to another person.

Shael Norris (31:33)
And that's at the of our work. Safe Bay is before anyone else. And so the catharsis that can happen in that space of saying, I feel that I can take back my power by preventing what happens to me or even one of the pieces of what happened to me, right? Like either the assault itself or the lack of understanding that went into the assault or the backlash that I faced in my community after the assault.

Shael Norris (32:03)
and feeling like you have power to change that for somebody else can be healing in a way that isn't accessible from therapies or talk therapy of some kind. So I think that is a piece, but also...

Shael Norris (32:24)
There isn't a linear path. It's not the same for everyone. I've seen a lot of young survivors who start doing this work who maybe get a level of limelight from doing the work. And then there is, that gets conflated and mixed up in seeking more limelight. And there's almost like a drive to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (32:27)
Right.

Shael Norris (32:51)
a level of status or celebrity or visibility because it makes you feel good that people are like, you just told your horrific story and everybody's giving you attention and then that sort of feels good. But then it gets confused with like seeking more of that. And we shouldn't be asking people to tell their horrific story over and over and over again because we're not gonna care about this issue unless we do. And...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (32:55)
Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (33:17)
Yeah, I like that you've mentioned that. I asked this question more frequently lately because, and it's in this because I know your organization is largely led by survivors and is led by youth and there is that pull. I see it especially on social media that unless you share the most intimate traumatic details of your story,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (33:46)
your story is not valid. And so I've seen this trend over the years of especially young people. I do find that other generations are better at maybe it's establishing boundaries in part, or maybe it's tied to the past of feeling like you need to be silent. I'm not sure what the reasoning there is, but I have seen that

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (34:13)
Yeah, there's this real push towards advocacy in a specific way that leads you to feel completely depleted when the sort of spotlight is off you. And I think that's a really important element to touch on as well.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (34:34)
because sometimes in doing so, you miss some of those support elements when you're not integrated with an organization or an entity that actually has a plan and protocol in place to support you.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (34:49)
So that's why there really is a need for folks, I wholeheartedly believe, if you're going to be engaging in advocacy and reclaiming your power through storytelling, have that safe space through a community-based organization or entity or peer group or whatever it may be who can be there for you outside of the spotlight.

Shael Norris (35:14)
making it like central to your identity either, right? Like, we still want you to have normal developmental experiences that don't center your whole identity around this. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that I get all the time is people are shocked to find out that I don't, I'm not a survivor. They're like, what? How did you come to do this work if you weren't assaulted yourself? And I'm like, I'm sorry, are we asking cancer patients to cure cancer?

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (35:17)
That's a tricky element.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (35:34)
Mm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (35:43)
you

Shael Norris (35:43)
If we are leaving this exclusively up to the people who experience it directly, that's not fair to them. And that's not fair to society or like that's again, putting all the onus and burden on the people who have experienced it is not fair. I've, you know, our co-founders will always be our co-founders, always get the credit for like being the little engine that could when no one would let us in the door.

Shael Norris (36:12)
you know, because we are now invited into high schools. Not all of them, not enough, but those are the kids who pushed through all those taboos and took all the risks and put themselves out there with me and believed in me as much as I believed in them. But their whole identities for the rest of their lives shouldn't have to be that. Like, Jada's gone on to have this incredible career and in her...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (36:15)
Right.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (36:36)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (36:40)
hair salon, now it's kind of like a style salon. They've all gone on to do incredible things. They don't have to stay with this forever. You can still do something and then like pass that torch and legacy on to the next generation of young kids. Because, you know, they used to tease me about being old too. And I'd be like, careful, you're going to age out of your own demographic. And they were like, no, we're not. you know, Charlie's got two kids like.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (36:43)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (37:00)
It'll to you one day.

Shael Norris (37:07)
you're not in your demographic anymore. It should never be central to your identity or feel forced or feel like that's the only way you can be relevant. But it is a delicate balance. You don't want people to not tell their story if that's an empowerment place for them, an empowering place for them, but you also don't want them to feel like that's the only place that they can.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (37:07)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (37:19)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (37:33)
uplifted. I've always said to all of them, I want you to be successful in your whole lives no matter whether you ever do this work in the future or not. And so, you know, I think

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (37:43)
Mm-hmm. Really in the big picture, it's a piece of our puzzle, but it's not the whole picture, right? Part of healing is being able to tap back into creating new memories and reclaiming who you are and...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (38:02)
I think it's beautiful that you as the ED see that and see the need for that and also working with youth especially, being able to share that like this could be a season of your life where you're engaged in this work or.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (38:19)
This could be something that you pass the torch along as you grow up and that's okay and that those two things are okay. And we see that a lot in this sector too, folks feeling like you have to be anchored in this work for the entirety of your career. And it's hard work. very heavy work to hold. There is. And so I actually love that kind of approach to it that

Shael Norris (38:39)
There's secondary trauma that comes with it.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (38:47)
you should be able to move forward when the time feels right if that's what needs to be next for you.

Shael Norris (38:57)
And I think also to that point, just to like extend a little bit more on that, I think that needs to be true of adult leadership too. I think particularly when your mission is young people, but it should be applicable to everyone and anyone. Don't stay in the work too long. Step back, pass the torch, make it part of your model to replace yourself, to mentor. And I actually think of the kids as mentoring me, but

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (39:04)
I agree.

Shael Norris (39:26)
to uplift and encourage and invite the next generation of work to not, for not just for them to innovate and create new programs, but for them to be able to take over for you. Because so many times I see colleagues my age and older who have done absolutely no investment in their life outside of this work because it is all consuming. And so the idea of leaving this work becomes paralyzingly like out of reach. But I think

Shael Norris (39:54)
My goal, my goal was always to leave Safe Bay's work about 10 years in. We haven't achieved that goal. First, we would have to make my position, the compensation for my position appealing to anyone to take over. So sustainability comes with funding too. Like to be able to pass the torch, have to make the torch worth grabbing. But I really want to do that. I really like believe in honing that.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:09)
Right.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:16)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (40:24)
that next generation and that I want the work to go on without me. don't want, we should all feel like we're a piece of the puzzle and we're adding our contribution and our legacy and our vision to it. And then we're passing it on so that the next can be built. That's critical, but it also involves checking yourself and making sure that you don't bring too much ego to the table in it and that you have a life outside of this work so that A, you don't get burnout and B,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:30)
Mm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:52)
Yep.

Shael Norris (40:54)
you can comfortably pass the torch without feeling like you're losing a part of yourself.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (40:59)
Mm-hmm. I think that's so important for people to hear who are in this sector. I see that a lot in this sector. And I will say within our organization, I really tried to develop sort of our leadership model that we're all on equal playing fields as we're sort of in our growth stage now.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (41:26)
as more of a newer organization, but that was what I had in mind. I want others to eventually be able to take over director positions and grow as a team rather than the typical structure that you see in this world and allow new ideas to take shape. if it feels as though...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (41:52)
you're in that system where one person's ideas are leading the entire team exclusively. You don't see as much innovation typically from my experience anyway. And I think you really do have to remove your ego when you're developing models like that. so that's really inspiring to hear as well. And I hope.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (42:16)
Subtle nod to anyone listening in the nonprofit sector. This is a fantastic learning opportunity.

Shael Norris (42:22)
As soon as they bring you a crazy idea and you think, that's crazy, protect yourself because crazy has some merit to it. And I think that's where an intergenerational approach is nice, right? Like this does seem crazy. Is it crazy just with them? like being able to like sort of go, all right, where is this landing with people, young people? Does this feel authentic to them? Because it's not going to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (42:26)
Yeah, yeah.

Shael Norris (42:47)
need to feel authentic to me, I don't matter in whether or not it feels authentic, but then I have to think about how we're framing it for adults in the space too, right? If like we're building stuff that it's exclusively to appeal to young people and we never thread the needle with like inviting older people in, those adult allies, the people who are making decisions about what gets brought into schools or parents and those are really important stakeholders in this work too.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (43:13)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (43:16)
I have to go, here's the product, whatever it may be. We are centering kids' experiences and the authenticity of them in whatever we're building. But now we have to think about what is the packaging that we might be able to then invite older people into the space too. make, it is a constant dance of, my God, this is never gonna get shown in schools. So maybe this is just a social media campaign that we're doing, but we're gonna, and.

Shael Norris (43:45)
But also I've been surprised. of the first things early on, one of the first short resources that we built was called Know Before You Nude. So I of course, it was the idea of some young people. was like nudes were rampant. They were sending them all over in schools and then somebody would share it non-consensually. I everybody would get slut shamed and all the things. And they were like, we need to do something. We want a video on this. We want like a PSA kind of thing. We want to talk about this. We want lessons on it. Nobody's teaching this. And this was probably about 2017.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (43:52)
Mmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (44:13)
Okay.

Shael Norris (44:15)
And I was like, okay, so sexting, like a sexting diversion program. And they were like, Lord have mercy. They were like, okay, sit down. We're gonna explain to you now that sexting is not nudes and nudes is not sexting. And I was like, taking notes, got it. Okay, I'm so irrelevant. And I was like, okay, okay. And they were like, so it's gotta be nudes. And I was like, my God, there is not a teacher on the face of this earth that is gonna teach about nudes in their class.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (44:20)
No.

Shael Norris (44:44)
the level of discomfort, I know that that's gonna be a barrier for us getting this into schools, right? So I said, but I do believe in you and I do agree that this is an important issue that we know isn't addressed, nobody's teaching it, and we're all just, all the adults out here are just like, don't take pictures of your genitals, full stop. And we know that doesn't work. And so.

Shael Norris (45:07)
I said, let's just approach this as like strictly a social media campaign. We're just gonna put it out there. We're gonna try and get people talking about it. We're gonna do something that feels accessible, authentic to their experiences. We'll use emojis that are in place of body parts things, right? So they made the most beautiful PSA came. It is so good. It's funny. It's quirky. It's everything. And I thought we'll put it out on social media. We'll do the thing. And I said, but we're gonna make a teaching guide. We're gonna make a teaching guide. We're gonna put it on the things.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (45:20)
Thank

Shael Norris (45:37)
It is one of the most popular tools that teachers use. So here I am, humbled, surprised. I didn't believe in my brethren of elders that they would tackle this even if they were icked out by it. And so here we are, surprised and ready to keep doing that. And people can either sort of meet us where we're at and surprise us, or they can shut it down and we can just target kids directly and bypass the adults anyway.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (45:40)
Wow.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (45:48)
you

Shael Norris (46:06)
Some things are gonna land and some things aren't and that's okay. We'll just keep putting out everything that feels relevant to what's happening in their lives right now.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (46:16)
Right. I feel like that also in part two ties into that element of you're sharing. You need to have that little bit of like crazy belief in what you're doing because I mean, we've done things like that before where even if no one wants to acknowledge an issue, you know the issue is taking place. So you just do what needs to be done. And then when it actually gets picked up, you're

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (46:44)
in a state of pure shock, however, I think it's really a testament to the fact that when we're thinking about developing campaigns and things of that nature, we really just need to think of the issue, go to the populations that directly need the support, need the tools, talk to them, bring them in, and let it take shape and don't be afraid of the crazy.

Shael Norris (47:14)
I know, it's not for the people pleasing among us, which I can definitely fall into. It's so funny, you made me think of it while you talking. I actually have a quote on my laptop, and I just pulled it up, and it says, you wanna make everyone happy, don't be a leader, sell ice cream. So I always say, I'm gonna say things that make adults wildly uncomfortable. I'm not gonna get invited to a lot of dinner parties, I'm not gonna like...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (47:20)
Really.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (47:32)
There you go.

Shael Norris (47:41)
You know, I made the mistake when my kids were in elementary school of letting my kids' principal follow me on Facebook. my God. she was clutching her pearls. She was like, at one point I applied for a grant to like do like very baseline bodily autonomy kind of thing in their school with their gym teacher, by the way, who was totally on board. And the principal was like, you are going to get me fired. But I was like, this is because you're reading my Facebook page. I'm not talking about vaginas with the kids. Stop reading that part.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (48:11)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (48:11)
This is because you get that I like come from a really radical background So you were like afraid that I'm gonna like try and radicalize your elementary school and that's fair I mean ask the question like assume and so it does make for Yeah, I'm not here I'm not here to be popular like I definitely freak out the other moms are like, you know, I just

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (48:27)
I feel you on so many levels here. Relatable.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (48:36)
Yeah, that could be a whole other podcast, honestly, where the duality of motherhood and working in leadership in the nonprofit space, especially sexual violence, really exclusively that topic is a very niche area that brings discomfort for folks.

Shael Norris (48:42)
It's okay.

Shael Norris (48:51)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (48:57)
my god, brings direct trauma. That would be a whole other podcast, but if you want to Google my daughter's name, it's a story.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (49:06)
Yeah, yeah.

Shael Norris (49:08)
It's just you teach your kids those things and then they go out into the world and then they're like nobody around them understands what they're talking about and then they face a certain amount of backlash and then you go, oh no, did I make the wrong move as a mom? And then now I'm happy to say I have a 22 and 19 year old and they survived and they're just fine and they are better for it. But there was definitely a time when that was something that made for exceptional ostracization for my kids.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (49:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, let's talk about that on another episode maybe, but I'd actually love to talk about that topic. But first, I do want to dive in because we are a Canadian organization and can learn so much from you into the school-based prevention and education models that Safe Bay has. think...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (50:00)
that the work you're doing is again so innovative and is not being done in the same ways by other organizations that we've been made aware of throughout both Canada and the US. So I'd really just like to start from whichever point feels best for you, but understanding some of the...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (50:24)
youth models that Safe Bay has, some of the programs that you have, and really just learning lessons that you've learned along the way through development of those programs.

Shael Norris (50:38)
Well, I think those lessons were there before we got here. We just weren't necessarily listening to them and nobody was like looking at that research going, okay, I'll take a shot on developing what the research tells us needs to be developed. this was, I feel like when you look at the full spectrum of things we've developed, it can be very overwhelming. So I'm gonna just like say that out of the gate. I feel like every school I meet with, every adult I talk to, I'm like, just think of this as a buffet.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (50:41)
then

Shael Norris (51:08)
and because we really have created the largest library of sexual violence prevention resources for this age group. So when you look at it, you're like, my god, this is too much, I don't know where to start or whatever. So just know that any starting place is a good starting place and everything that we've developed started with centering the experiences of young people and giving them access to things without that adult gay people.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (51:13)
We're good.

Shael Norris (51:34)
that I keep talking about. So when we started, again, 2015, a long time ago, pre-Me Too, very different time, we developed a couple of things out of the gate. One were short format video content to try and put information directly in the hands of kids. And as we sort of built up some library of that, short format video content, teaching guides and talking points to go with them.

Shael Norris (51:59)
Again, we put it all out for free. just kind of were like, whoever can use it should, wants to use it. Prevention people that were going into schools already. Maybe this video is like a little bit more authentic to the experiences of kids, can serve the work and be most helpful. And then we developed, as we kind of grew that library, developed a club model. So where kids could lead clubs in their schools.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (52:16)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (52:28)
because we realized too that if there was like a barrier in getting work done in schools, that oftentimes that can be a little bit of a work around and that kids can get a little bit of momentum there and raising awareness and sort of talking about and changing culture. One of the things I think we've learned from that club model is that oftentimes the most successful entry point in a school with starting with a club

Shael Norris (52:55)
is integrating Safe Bay Club programming into an existing club. So we work with lot of like national honor societies, student council, any mentoring type of club. We try to steer away from like an exclusively like feminist club, because we want to invite all gender identities involved. And if you start with like just there, then that accidental activism that I spoke of earlier does not have the opportunity to happen. Not every kid is going to see themselves as like a messenger of this work.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (53:17)
Great.

Shael Norris (53:23)
but they may learn if they're sitting in a already sort of leadership position of student council, for example, they might go, yeah, guess I, yeah, okay, I could lead this work. I guess I do have something to say about this and maybe I haven't been directly impacted, but maybe I dated somebody that has been or my sister or like, again, inviting all gender identities to feel like they have a contribution to make. So that was at the core of our starting place. Then we built out what has become our flagship.

Shael Norris (53:52)
program that we launched in 2020, which is our certified peer educator training. And that was, is a very deep dive. It is now 18 modules and it is virtual self-paced, which is really important. Pick it up and put it down as needed for as long as you want. It will always be there as long as we exist for free. And it is such a deep dive. It breaks down the topics of everything from just,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (54:03)
Right.

Shael Norris (54:20)
understanding rape culture or understanding the difference between harassment and sexual assault and rape, or understanding the spectrum of unhealthy, healthy, and abusive relationships, bystander intervention, dating somebody who has experienced sexual violence. One of my absolute favorite, which was at the demand of the students we work with, which is how to respond if you've been accused. What an important piece of the puzzle. And so,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (54:44)
the

Shael Norris (54:48)
We developed a peer educator training. are at over 3,000 kids across the US and Canada and several other spots who have been trained in being certified peer educators. One of the things that's nice is I always say, this is gonna be great on your resume when you apply to colleges or even jobs. And...

Shael Norris (55:09)
I don't care what your motivation is for taking it, because you're still going to learn a lot. And it's very, it's engaging. It's got all of that short format video content that we've continued to develop over all of these years is all embedded in there. So it's not just a static and boring thing. And I think the numbers speak for themselves that there is interest there and it isn't entirely, you know, boring and, you know, inaccessible to them. So then when we looked at

Shael Norris (55:39)
all the centralized work that we've done with all of these kids, we've realized too that if we didn't step up to the plate and engage more adult allies, the decision makers in kids' lives, and sometimes the advocates in kids' lives, to see themselves in this work and be a part of their work, particularly in school settings, then we were not only missing pieces, but we were setting kids up for secondary trauma.

Shael Norris (56:08)
kids all of a sudden knew more about consent than the adults that they were reporting to. And so we realized that there were a lot of gaps in the systems in schools because again, still a very taboo issue. So at that point, we rounded out our resources and really dug into the research that I referred to. there were a few things the research pointed to toward.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (56:16)
Wow.

Shael Norris (56:38)
that one-off programs that we love, right, really short format stuff in a health class or an assembly didn't work. They actually literally didn't move the needle at all. They did not change attitudes or actions. So we needed to stop doing that as a go-to. And that is still our toughest battle today. We are still very, very, if schools are doing anything, they're maybe doing a one-off. And that predominantly

Shael Norris (57:06)
existing prevention education was focused on being adult created and adult delivered. So never tapped into that, like empowering young people to see themselves in the work and to pick that up and like think about how it was applicable outside of school, which is where things were happening. So we needed to invite multiple messengers.

Shael Norris (57:30)
So adults and kids being messengers multiple times that they were getting messages throughout their developmental years because things that hit, we should be doing that early intervention work before they've even started down that road. Cause I would say we like to do all this stuff like maybe in college or whatever. That's so far into the game. They have well experienced the culture, even if they're not actually active. Right? Yeah. So then we're trying to unlearn stuff in like a freshman orientation. That's not going to work. So

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (57:52)
Maybe start far earlier.

Shael Norris (58:00)
We need to do that early intervention education before they're even in intimacy and frame consent outside of intimacy, because we should, and then naturally segue throughout their developmental years because it's going to hit very differently by the time they're a junior, senior. They're going to have seen things, they're going to have experienced things, they're going to have heard things, and a whole different framework. So the more we can touch on things, do some awareness raising programs, do some educational programs with different messengers.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (58:11)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (58:29)
that all of that messy and really integrating it outside of just health class, that that's where you're gonna start to see culture change. That's where you're start to see higher reports, which is very encounter intuitive, but the more kids report means the safer the school is, the more that they know how to report, they know where to report, and they feel safe to report. So you're gonna see more reports, but you're going to see less actual incidents that...

Shael Norris (58:59)
like really are in that very dangerous zone, right? Like we want kids to start reporting problematic.

Shael Norris (59:09)
like jokes and statements and things like that before it ever escalates to the point of abuse and harassment and sexual assault. So I think that's when the additional things that we added on were a curriculum for use in classrooms. We have a full length curriculum and then we have very short format curriculums because we know that sometimes that's the starting place. That's all we have time for in the day.

Shael Norris (59:39)
And then we also created a sexual misconduct policy guide so that schools that maybe didn't have a sexual misconduct policy or had a very old one or very lawyer created, no sort of trauma informed policy could really look at inviting all the stakeholders in their school to be involved and invited to be a part of creating a really robust prevention and response policy.

Shael Norris (01:00:08)
And then making that policy really accessible to the student body so kids know where to report, how to report, and what the process is when they do report so that we can reduce the secondary trauma of an investigation in a school and the repercussions that might face students. So, and then we created an accountability tool for use with respondents. So kids who have been accused,

Shael Norris (01:00:37)
And really thinking about that restorative justice lens and ways that we can address the fact that many kids in this age group are unwitting perpetrators. They think that they understand consent and healthy relationships or the normalization of what they're seeing, and they really don't understand the problematic behavior that they might be exhibiting.

Shael Norris (01:01:07)
can interrupt that pathway of thinking they understand those things and help them to reflect. again, it's not gonna be a tool that fits with every student. We need a spectrum of things. But where we are seeing empathy and self-reflection and remorse and...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:01:20)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:01:30)
kids who want to take accountability and do better, then we need a tool to give that to them. So we created that as a tool that schools could use. And then on top of that, just making sure that we engage parents, that we do a lot of education with parents so they understand what their kids are talking about when they start talking about consent, right? And so that's that full spectrum model that we try and are working toward.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:01:47)
which is important.

Shael Norris (01:01:59)
just a culture shift to prioritize that work in schools, to start someplace and build up to doing a more robust application of, and thinking of it as social and emotional learning in school, as well as suicide prevention. Because that's the other piece we really don't talk about, is that in the US, kids across the country take a youth risk behavior survey every year. And for the first time in the history of

Shael Norris (01:02:28)
the CDC in the US in their 2023 report, they made a direct connection between suicidal ideation and sexual violence as experienced by young people. And anecdotally, it's 100%. And we need to talk about it. We need to talk about the immediate risk of suicide, but also the behaviors, the problematic self-harm behaviors that happen in an unhealed.

Shael Norris (01:02:58)
and unreported and, you know, trauma that kids have experienced and the slow path to suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, risk behavior, all of the self-harm that kids do when they don't access healing and they don't feel safe to come forward and get the support that they need from their community and their families. So.

Shael Norris (01:03:22)
So it's a massive undertaking to try and say, we're gonna try and touch every single one of those pieces to change culture in schools, but that is what will transform the landscape completely. And by the way, if we do it right and we do it well, and we do it broadly, we have the opportunity to prevent a lifetime of intimate partner abuse, right? If we teach kids correctly.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:03:46)
I think that's very key to emphasize. If you share those foundations, yeah, it really starts at such a young age. And I like that you highlighted sort of the full scope, but that it doesn't need to start at the most robust point. You can have those small introductions that builds and evolves. But I'd like to bring us back as we're getting to the sort of

Shael Norris (01:03:49)
Work please for us. Mm-hmm. Domestic abuse.

Shael Norris (01:04:06)
Great.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:04:15)
end of our conversation is the accountability tool that you've created. It's something that we've never seen before. We are obviously big advocates and lovers of innovative tech-based solutions to connect folks with the tools that they need to heal and navigate the world post sexual violence.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:04:45)
In this case, it's an accountability tool. So can you share a little bit more with us about VibeCheck by SafeBay and how that came to be and how it can be used? Because a lot of what is within this tool can really be used anywhere. Even for us, our obviously listener base is primarily Canadians, but there are so many valuable

Shael Norris (01:05:03)
Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:05:15)
lessons to be learned through this tool and resources that can be found through this tool. So walk us through that a little bit.

Shael Norris (01:05:23)
my gosh, yes. And wait, I have to come back to this because I completely forgot. We just partnered with your brethren in Canada. REECE is an incredible, yes, anonymous reporting platform that we've also partnered with to offer to schools so that schools can add to their robust list of tools and offerings to young people and an anonymous reporting tool that will remove some of the taboo of that reporting process and the difficulty of finding it.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:05:32)
Yes, I saw.

Shael Norris (01:05:53)
That was another piece we wanted to make sure we added to what we were offering schools. And it's part of, I think, what inspired our thinking, again, thinking into that technological solutions framework. So VibeCheck is its whole own other user journey. And it is at checkyourvibe.org.

Shael Norris (01:06:20)
accessible anywhere and applicable to everyone and everywhere and everything. And I think what first and foremost, the goal being to never leave any stone unturned. So we overturned all these stones in schools, but kids don't just live in schools. Where can we serve and make sure we're not leaving any gaps in the work and experiences of young people online? And I think it's one of the scariest places and most difficult places for adults to understand

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:06:44)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:06:49)
how young people navigate and therefore innovate solutions for how they're navigating those spaces. I know that I could never, if my life depended on it, create something of this resource. But that is why young people are so absolutely imperative in the work because Drew Davis on my team, had been in all these conversations and really been thinking about

Shael Norris (01:07:19)
what framework we could build to address some of what the online behavior that he was seeing that was so concerning to him. And one of the places that he became obsessed with was Reddit and how young people and people of all ages would go on Reddit and ask different questions and get, you know, answer from anyone. And that the questions about thinking that you might have caused harm to somebody, that the responses were so absolutely

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:07:40)
Thank you.

Shael Norris (01:07:49)
frightening in every way, and form that it kind of brought him down this rabbit hole of doing a full analysis of like, okay, there are kind of two buckets. There's like the responses that are, you're fine. You could never do anything wrong. Don't we hate women? Come on over to this like side chat that we have where we talk about how much we hate women and.

Shael Norris (01:08:17)
and that direct on ramp to that nanosphere behavior or the other side of things, which was like, there's no such thing as actual accidental assaults. You are a horrible person, harm yourself, which is also a pathway over to finding the people who relate to you and don't think you're a horrible person. And so where could we exist in a way that interrupted those pathways and those

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:08:19)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:08:34)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:08:46)
polarizing answers that weren't serving what was central to our work, which was reducing, eliminating, ending sexual violence among teens. How can we invite audiences that would otherwise not have access to this information because they're not getting it in school and they're living with the fact that they might have caused harm to somebody and the mental health outcomes from that and that the likelihood of recidivism is exceptionally high because they're not getting accurate answers.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:09:14)
you

Shael Norris (01:09:17)
Drew did this incredibly deep dive analysis of like, were the response, what were the questions, what were some of the responses and.

Shael Norris (01:09:26)
put his mind to creating a basically flow chart of how people answer those questions and how we could go about, sorry, how people ask those questions and how we could go about answering those questions. Knowing that fast on our heels, we were gonna start to see AI created solutions and that AI created solutions were going to be the absolute demise of any of these answers. They weren't gonna improve upon the

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:09:38)
Thank

Shael Norris (01:09:56)
human answers that were on Reddit. If kids were already asking these questions on Reddit and getting horrible answers, and then they were moving over to chat GPT or some sort of other tool to ask those questions, and then all of those answers are sourced from Reddit threads, then we were gonna just be in this cycle of horrificness forever. And so we needed to create something using evidence-based tools, using the things that we've built over these last 10 years, not sourcing AI at all and...

Shael Norris (01:10:24)
being able to be responsive to those questions with first and foremost, reducing the defensiveness, inviting them in instead of calling them out and creating pathways for them to address the feelings that they were having as a result of being told they caused harm or thinking they might have or suspecting. And then pathways to like, well,

Shael Norris (01:10:52)
Why do you think that? What made you think that? Did somebody tell you that you caused harm? Did they freeze? Are they refusing to return your text messages? Things like that. And then inviting them to understand a little bit more about some of those responses. So freeze is a perfect example, right? If they follow that pathway and they say, I think I might have sexually assaulted somebody. And then the next question is, why do you think that? And they respond with, well, they froze or kind of didn't like...

Shael Norris (01:11:22)
reciprocate in the moment. And then the next pathway takes them to a, the reason that people freeze, right? Freeze and flight and fawn and so better understanding that response and then guiding them through managing their feelings about that after they read that information. So are they feeling defensive still? Are they feeling angry and helping them to process that and then helping them move to the next step, which is repair.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:11:23)
Okay.

Shael Norris (01:11:50)
Thinking about repair, can they think about the ways in which they might want to talk about that or frame an apology, as well as learning, right, how to read those nonverbal cues, understand consent more robustly. So all kinds of learning pathways that can take them down.

Shael Norris (01:12:17)
as well as healing for themselves and for the person that they might have harmed. So really thinking about all of those things as solutions that are necessary in all parts, because if we don't address accused or perpetrators or suspected perpetrators, then we ultimately create their villain origin story for them.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:12:41)
Yeah, and we see the cycles continue when that happens. We're seeing it. We're seeing that sexual assault is one of the only crimes that continues to rise. exactly.

Shael Norris (01:12:45)
Absolutely.

Shael Norris (01:12:53)
And they escalate too, right? If you anger and the online groups tell you the only person you have to blame is the person that accused you and you don't have to reflect at all on yourself, because the truth of the matter is, is that we are all going to mess this up. Adults mess it up. Adults messed it up when they were kids. We're all going to mess it up along the way. But the true measure of your character is not that you never make a misstep in any intimacy ever. It's how you respond to

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:13:11)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:13:23)
learning that you did or suspecting that you did and saying, well, I don't want to be that person. And it doesn't make me a horrible monster because we love to black and white everything, right? We like to say people who cause harm are monsters. They're not like us. But the truth is, and then kids know this more than anyone. It's almost always someone in their friend group that they find out has been accused and then they have no idea how to say.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:13:25)
Thank you.

Shael Norris (01:13:47)
I wasn't there and I don't think they would do something bad. And like, so they have no idea how to process it. They think I either have to cancel and eliminate that person from my friend group or I have to disbelieve the person who made the accusation in the first place and I don't feel great about that. So where is that in between that actually serves?

Shael Norris (01:14:04)
like taking accountability and ensuring that we all have tools of how to not cause that harm again so that the onus doesn't have to be on the person who experienced the harm to teach them not how to harm, how to not harm again. But again, still centralizing that the needs of survivors. No, you're fine.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:14:31)
Sorry about that.

Shael Norris (01:14:32)
still centralizing the needs of survivors because again, we kept hearing so many of the times and it's not universal, but so many of the times I just wanted them to say they were sorry and not do it to another person. And if that is common experience for survivors, how can we serve that? And so I think that we all need to...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:14:45)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:14:56)
feel a little less afraid of dealing with perpetrators, particularly young ones. Again, this is not gonna be applicable to everyone. There are people with genuine sociopathy that this is not gonna be a tool that functions for them and is meant to serve them. But I think that we need to stop shying away from saying, know, perpetrators aren't our fault or our problem or our cross to bear, because the truth is that perpetrators...

Shael Norris (01:15:24)
and survivors can oftentimes be the same person. There is overlap there. And if we want to break those cycles, and if we truly want to interrupt the escalation of somebody who might have caused harm in one way into causing way more harm and way more incidents of abuse, then we need to welcome the opportunity for people to

Shael Norris (01:15:52)
rectify in some way, take accountability in some way, and off ramp from the pathway of rage and anger and more harm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:16:02)
I think thinking sometimes with a lens of reality.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:16:11)
who was calling me yet.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:16:20)
Sorry about that. You have numerous children too, so you always have to check. Okay, so I first and foremost think that this tool is so timely and so needed and I think that as a society and as organizations, my goodness gracious, like not right now sir.

Shael Norris (01:16:22)
You're fine.

Shael Norris (01:16:26)
Absolutely.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:16:50)
I don't know why my computer is mirroring, it's coming through even though I don't want it to. I'll just stop that.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:17:03)
Yes, as, sorry, threw me off. As organizations working in sexual violence prevention and support for survivors, I so frequently see the focus solely being on those who experienced harm, but never addressing those who perpetrated harm, which, as you've shared, can often be...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:17:27)
the same in many regards. Often those who experience harm then will perpetrate harm through cycles of violence. And when we're talking about children and youth especially, many young men who have experienced sexual violence will then perpetrate that harm in the future. So I think as you said, this tool will not be for every scenario. It will not be for...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:17:53)
perpetrators who are grooming minors, who are adults harming minors. That's not who the tool is for. I can see that even as someone who's just starting to engage with it, in some scenarios, of course.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:18:09)
It may be able to be used, but I really see it for youth specifically as also a part of prevention really as well. I see it as a tool that again can be used even in friend circles saying,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:18:24)
Even if there's a lot of blurred lines right now, because we know often there's alcohol or drug use mixed into situations where you are also very intoxicated, it becomes difficult for everyone involved in the scenario, but saying maybe this is a tool you should take a look at could be a starting point as well for anyone involved in sort of that reporting process or disclosure process.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:18:50)
to allow those who are causing harm to reflect on their actions. think that's something that we've never seen before. And I hope to dive in a little bit deeper in future episodes into more of the questions and sort of the background behind it. But really I encourage anyone who, well, really anyone can take a look and have it as a resource in their back pocket.

Shael Norris (01:19:16)
Oh, absolutely. And we absolutely. And that's the other thing, too, right? Like getting it in the hands of people that maybe aren't in the responsive moment, but they know it's there. And maybe they're like, you know, my friend makes a lot of really tasteless jokes. I feel like maybe we should just like throw this in the mix and have a conversation about it. We we created like a sort of parent introduction guide to write. So you don't want to be like the mom. Listen, I have a son.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:19:25)
Mmm.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:19:34)
Take a look at this.

Shael Norris (01:19:45)
If I've been like, hey, here's this vibe check thing, he'd be like, mom, what do you think of me? And so being able to say, hey, I don't think you're gonna need this, but I think inevitably you might have a friend that would need, I wanna make sure you know about this just in case a friend needs it and you can be that person that gives it to a friend. I you don't need it, right? So that maybe, whatever framework it is, just inviting.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:20:10)
Someone in your life will need it.

Shael Norris (01:20:14)
the interest, inviting the, you know, explore it. So the more hands we can get it into, whether it's preventionists, health educators, school counselors, but kids themselves. And the ultimate goal, just shout out to anybody who's listening that might know anyone at Reddit, the ultimate goal would be to get a bot on Reddit that the second somebody asks a question in this framework, this pops up as like, hey,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:20:18)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:20:40)
you're gonna get a lot of answers from some randos here, but also here's the spot that's gonna give you some really useful actual evidence-based tools so that we're interrupting a little bit of that conversation in an echo chamber place that happens online. I think that would be an ideal thing, things like getting it in Discord spaces, any place that kids are really having those conversations online or asking those questions online that...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:20:45)
Mm-hmm.

Shael Norris (01:21:09)
we can make sure that it's something that's put in front of them without them even necessarily having to seek it out. That would be absolute goals. So I'm just gonna keep showing up at the Reddit offices. somehow, someway we are going to find our way into asking somebody at Reddit about, you know, utilizing this tool. So.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:21:20)
into the universe.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:21:29)
I think that would be phenomenal and so impactful for folks of all ages, all backgrounds to be able to have access to that tool. In closing, I will ask you one final question, which is if you could make one recommendation for any parents listening right now as sort of a call to action, what would that be?

Shael Norris (01:21:58)
Good question. Well, I mean, check out Five Check. But also, I think for me, the thing that I love to say to parents, and listen, I am not out here, this is not a parenting expert podcast situation, that having a son and a daughter and being past those years, those absolutely in the trenches years of the early teens, that the thing I emphasize most with parents is to,

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:22:01)
you

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:22:09)
Yeah.

Shael Norris (01:22:26)
say to your kids, set your boundaries, set your like, this is what my rules are and these are the rules that you have to follow. But also, I want you to know that you always have me to call. And I get so emotional about this too because you have to give free passes to your kids. And sometimes that feels like permissive to say like, you know I expect you not to drink, but if you do drink and people are gonna drive, like call me, you won't get in trouble.

Shael Norris (01:22:55)
It feels like that's counterintuitive to say like, don't drink, but if you do, but I think that we want our kids to know that if things are going sideways, that we will be there for them. And beyond a shadow of adult, we want them to be safe. We want their peers to be safe. And we want to be a safe person for them to call in an emergency like that, right? Because,

Shael Norris (01:23:23)
things escalate quickly and kids don't know how to navigate that and they all think they're gonna. And so I think that's the biggest thing I always try to emphasize to parents is like, make sure they know that as my kids would die to hear me say like you are ride or die, that you're not gonna get in trouble for this. We'll address the fact that you broke my rules later, but you're not gonna get in trouble for this. The only thing I care about is your safety and the safety of your friends.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:23:50)
Yeah, it will always show up. Yeah.

Shael Norris (01:23:53)
Yeah, so it's hard. think we forget that because we're trying to hold on to the rules and we're trying to make sure we're guiding them in the right way and we're trying like desperately out there trying in any way we can to keep them on the, you know, a good path. And so I, it is really, really hard to do in this moment in time.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:24:14)
It is, and I agree that that is one of the best pieces of advice that you can give. I grew up in a household where...

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:24:24)
Yeah, my... Now I'm emotional. But my father was that to me and to my friends and my cousins and he would get calls from friends of mine and cousins at three, four in the morning, usually with no explanation. I'm in an unsafe situation. I need you to pick me up here.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:24:47)
And he would just go and usually no questions asked, stop at, this is very Canadian coded, but Tim Hortons, grab a cup of tea and drop them back home safe and sound.

Shael Norris (01:24:55)
my god, I love Tim Hortons.

Shael Norris (01:25:02)
Yeah.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:25:03)
That is what we really need now more than ever because it's so easy for youth to be disconnected, especially with access to technology as great as it is. It also creates that disconnection and that sense of community and acceptance is still needed and needs to be vocalized. So to wrap this up, this was an amazing conversation and I'm so, so grateful that you joined us on the She Matters podcast and I'm sure we'll have

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:25:33)
conversations but where can folks find Safe Bay, support your work, or get their schools involved?

Shael Norris (01:25:42)
Safebay.org, B-A-E. And you'll find VibeCheck on there too, so that's one stop shopping for everything we offer. And again, everything we do with young people is entirely free and always will be for the purpose of accessibility. And the things that we do charge for with schools or things are always on a sliding scale. We want our work out there. Never feel like that's a barrier to us.

Shael Norris (01:26:07)
trying to do any work with you. So if you have a question or you have an interest or you wanna get things going in your school or community and there's something that feels out of reach, please let us know. We wanna be as accessible as humanly possible while also trying to stay sustainable. So it's a delicate balance, but always know that we want to do this work with you.

Jacqueline Villeneuve-Ahmed (01:26:30)
Amazing. Again, thank you so much for being on the She Matters podcast today and I hope that folks listening take time to learn more about Safe Bay, learn more about Vibe Check, and reach out if you have questions and we'll have all of the links in our show notes today.